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 Dreager on Bioethics

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Gina




20100618
PostDreager on Bioethics

http://www.thehastingscenter.org/Bioethicsforum/Post.aspx?id=4730&blogid=140

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Dreager on Bioethics :: Comments

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Re: Dreager on Bioethics
Post on Fri 18 Jun 2010, 11:34 am by galens47
Hi Gina,

I don't mean to be a pill, but why do folks misspell her name here? Dreger last I checked.

Thanks,

Galen
Re: Dreager on Bioethics
Post on Fri 18 Jun 2010, 6:00 pm by Gina
Hi Galen

I can't be bothered getting it right.
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Re: Dreager on Bioethics
Post on Fri 18 Jun 2010, 6:18 pm by galens47
You rock!

Cheers,

Galen
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Re: Dreager on Bioethics
Post on Fri 18 Jun 2010, 10:31 pm by TomMsG
So glad you put up the Hastings comments. Dreager continues to deny humanity to intersex even as she defends little girls from abuse.
love you Gina. It's sometimes hard to see the bias in these "experts" when they seem to be "doing the right thing" but ahhh the omissions. Tom/Ms.G
Re: Dreager on Bioethics
Post on Sat 19 Jun 2010, 2:58 am by Gina
Tom/MsG

The article reports Chisd sex abuse . Whether it be in the name of science or with the parents consent the sexual stimulation of a five year old by an adult is Sex abuse pure and simple.

If those who wroyte the hastings report had a moral bone in their body they would call the apropriate Child welfare department and the police, rather than pontificate and strut their outrage in a journal on ethice.

If I knew who the apropriate authorities were i would do it myself out of my obligations as a human being to show a duty of care for children.
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Re: Dreager on Bioethics
Post on Sat 19 Jun 2010, 3:01 am by galens47
Write a challenge. You are qualified.

G
Re: Dreager on Bioethics
Post on Sat 19 Jun 2010, 3:02 am by Gina
Whp To Galens. I cant find your American Child welfare people and I don't know who the local police are.

I will certainly complain when I figure that out.
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Re: Dreager on Bioethics
Post on Sat 19 Jun 2010, 2:58 pm by TomMsG
It might add to our fire power to read the original papers (re Dix Poppas and Co.) (2007) from Cornell Urology. Better to quote directly than third/fourth hand blog-stuff. Hard to track down a link but will give it a whirl.

tom/ms.g
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Re: Dreager on Bioethics
Post on Sat 19 Jun 2010, 3:13 pm by TomMsG
Here are links to Dr. Poppas work. This was pulled from a science blog that has been discussing the research. The comments are 99% offended by the second, third, fourth hand reports on the surgeries and esp. the subsequent stimulation. However, no one seems to have read the original papers and it's hard to tell if the person who commented below and provided these links did so either. We're going to take a look (if we can access the stuff) but have many fish to fry as of this moment. Love Tom/Ms.G


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17707
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17707
http://www.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2010/06/16/female-genital-mutilation-at-cornell-university



note that the links I copied might be busted, but they aren't hard to find.

so... does the interpretation of the ethics of his methods change if
he was addressing an actual dysfunction, rather than merely a cosmetic
issue?

has anyone else actually read his work and can comment?
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Re: Dreager on Bioethics
Post on Sat 19 Jun 2010, 4:00 pm by galens47
I'm going to forward these Publinks to my board. They have no business being masqueraded as science and ethical treatment. This is wrong clear and simple.

See you on the other side.

Cheers,

Galen
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Re: Dreager on Bioethics
Post on Sat 19 Jun 2010, 4:45 pm by TomMsG
Thanks Galen - we do do science - but we find a lot of balderdash and jabber standing in for it . So much easier to talk it to death than to go to all that trouble of refining one's methodology.

Is there some use in reporting this stuff to criminal (sexual abuse) authorities. Too often the authorties are overcome by the credential game as any of us. Still we really think the pedophile squads at the FBI might be interested in these secret experimentalists who seem to border on unconscious psychopaths. (Tom says secret because they have so far escaped public view by intimidating the victims and their families.)

Also did you get the list of Doctors who are speaking at the KS&A jamboree?
Give us a good email and we'll send it to you.

With love and hugs, Ms. G
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Re: Dreager on Bioethics
Post on Sat 19 Jun 2010, 4:48 pm by TomMsG
PPS: we tried to access those pages but got "pages not found". We're you able? WE note that Curtis has some other links on the forum. Love Tom/Ms.G
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Re: Dreager on Bioethics
Post on Sat 19 Jun 2010, 5:28 pm by galens47
http://slog.thestranger.com/blogs/slog/?sn

That is my favorite podcast. Dan Savage is my hero!

http://www.google.com/search?q=Yang%2C+Felsen%2C+and+Poppas&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

http://www.darkness2light.org/gethelp/reporting.asp

http://irb.illinois.edu/?q=regulation-policies/state-of-illinois.html

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=pXk&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=IRB+abuse+reporting&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

http://www.prevent-abuse-now.com/law3.htm

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=pXk&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=federal+sex+abuse&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

Its kind of fun, entertaining. I nkow thta my brain "see's" 2mil+/- bits every second then I know I have read a page when I can recall the info on the page even if it seems like i have read it. Most people only register 2000, imagine what you could do with 4000, give it a try, ask you brain for it and sleep on it and write what you experience in the morning. Let me know in a month if you notice anything.

Cheers,

Galen


I do not have happy thought in my head now. signing off for a while.

love you.

jjuniper
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Re: Dreager on Bioethics
Post on Sat 19 Jun 2010, 6:55 pm by TomMsG
Gina; Try your hand at this - http://www.weillcornell.org/dppoppas/index.html Dix Poppas credentials and interests... ohhh yeah. A top honors sorta guy from his fellows. Tom/MS.G
Re: Dreager on Bioethics
Post on Sat 19 Jun 2010, 9:28 pm by Gina
looking for this



  1. THE JOURNEY OF THE HERMAPHRODITE DISORDERS OF SEXUAL DEVELOPMENT FROM ANTIQUITY TO PRESENT
    Jennifer H Yang, Dix P Poppas
    The Journal of Urology
    April 2008 (Vol. 179, Issue 4, Supplement, Pages 312-313)
    Full-Text PDF (154 KB)

and this
Nerve Sparing Ventral Clitoroplasty: Analysis of Clitoral Sensitivity and Viability




Jennifer Yang, Diane Felsen, Dix P. Poppas

published online 16 August 2007.
Purpose



Enlargement of the clitoris is often a prominent manifestation of virilizing congenital adrenal hyperplasia and other disorders of sexual development. Controversy persists regarding the viability and sensitivity of the clitoris following clitoroplasty. We present 51 consecutive cases of nerve sparing ventral clitoroplasty performed by a single surgeon.

Materials and Methods



Nerve sparing ventral clitoroplasty was performed in all patients. Postoperative evaluation for clitoral viability included gross examination and capillary perfusion testing. Patients older than 5 years were evaluated for clitoral sensory testing and vibratory sensory testing.

Results



A total of 51 patients 4 months to 24 years old (mean age SD 4.6 6.8 years) with clitorimegaly underwent nerve sparing ventral clitoroplasty. Of the patients 41 had capillary perfusion testing of the clitoris, of whom all had a viable clitoris. Ten of the 41 patients underwent clitoral sensory testing. Patients reported an average degree of sensation of 3.6 0.9 at the labia minora and 4.8 0.4 at the clitoris. Nine of the 10 patients also underwent vibratory sensory testing. Average values for the introitus, clitoris, labia and thigh were 3.56, 1.61, 5.08, and 5.83, respectively. Mean time after surgery for the patients who underwent clitoral sensory testing/vibratory sensory testing was 2.0 0.8 years. No variations in the sensitivity results were reported at followup in 2 patients.

Conclusions



To our knowledge this is the largest report of followup testing of clitoral viability and sensation after clitoroplasty. Continued long-term followup is ongoing to document long-term sexual function using this nerve sparing ventral approach for clitoroplasty.
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Re: Dreager on Bioethics
Post on Sat 19 Jun 2010, 10:59 pm by TomMsG
Thankyou peaches down under... ms.G
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Re: Dreager on Bioethics
Post on Sun 20 Jun 2010, 12:10 am by galens47
Hey All,

We may have to look abroad for a court qualified to try human rights tribunal.

Cheers,

Galen

PS - Thanks Gina, be careful quoting like that. Usually better to quote a few items or send the whole paper.
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Re: Dreager on Bioethics
Post on Sun 20 Jun 2010, 12:12 am by TomMsG
Man you guys rock - err you know are umm hmmm?
extra special? Yeah that's it! Xtra special! Ms.G
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Re: Dreager on Bioethics
Post on Sun 20 Jun 2010, 2:28 pm by galens47
Human rights violations are exactly that whether they were done for science or war.

Either way its a trip to the Hague.

See you there!

Cheers,

Galen
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Re: Dreager on Bioethics
Post on Sun 20 Jun 2010, 3:19 pm by galens47
Hello All,

Can you imagine what it would be like to write a paper like this? It is very easy to read things in to the paper, I find myself doing it and haven't read it all the way through more than once. Have you ever written anything that was going to be published in a field where the main response method is to rip you a new one?

The hardest thing for me to do while reading Alice Dreger's publications is to reflect on my emotions while I read them. I feel the pain of her subjects. I feel the pain of the shock that will come for the child Dr Poppas violated. The feeling of remorse that her parents couldn't protect her. Believing she did something wrong to warrant the violation.

We are a community of extremely wounded children. Please have some compassion for yourselves and the others that are represented in the publication above.

Many have confused my feelings about Alice Dreger, they are one of respect for the work she has done, as it became obvious that she has studied her way into a hornets nest. I am a supporter of the field of bioethics. We have that in common.

I cried while writing this post.

Cheers,

Galen
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Re: Dreager on Bioethics
Post on Sun 20 Jun 2010, 5:11 pm by TomMsG
Yes Galen - Alice did make some choices that have placed her continuing efforts in very bad oder with those she purports to be studying and serving. The fact remains that she seems (like many academics) impervious to criticism that fails her tests for substantive credentials and/or implicit agreement with her assumptions. (We've often wondered how much of what she chose to do with ISNA was guided by her M.D. husband.) Additionally though she got taken in, up, with the NorthWestern clique of sex researchers who published and quoted each others works and gave her the necessary publications to continue her advance in academe. ( In Universities you do what you have to, to remain and prosper.)

An answer to our Bird of Paradox post implied that we wanted more intersex doctors - and yes that would be nice - but we'd like to see intersex involved as humans and persons at every level of the medical/therapy tree. Back in the day, the early '50's similar medical research was carried out with radio-active therapies purporting to know what they were doing and not being open or aboveboard with the recipients. That whole Hanford business with the release of radioactive iodine into the wind to measure the uptake among downwind citizens - in the late forties - several times is more of the same specious arrogance.
In a film on the AEC one of the officials was asked about the radioactive fallout East of White Sands and he said, "Well, I guess their real patriots."
Today they have lukemia at ten times the rate of western states.

Love you, yes, lets do write a paper - for Lancet or Nature or Psychology Today emphasizing the lack of ethics or the sexualization of children both of which are the more egregious aspects of this continuing irresponsible behavior by so-called researchers.

Tom/Ms.G
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Re: Dreager on Bioethics
Post on Sun 20 Jun 2010, 5:25 pm by galens47
Hello All,

The reporting that needed to get done is taken care of. Please put on your rain gear, poo will be falling out of the sky tomorrow.

Cheers,

Galen
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Re: Dreager on Bioethics
Post on Sun 20 Jun 2010, 5:33 pm by galens47
Hello Tom/MsG,

The paper is written, my posts leading up to this point. I dont have the patience to whack them apart and stuff'em back together. If you or anyone have that level of patience please be my guest. You will be one of its authors. PM me if this is your thing, we can get published today.

What is flowing out of me here and other sites is stream of consciousness, I don't usually write other than that, this is my medium. Emails are too but I treat them as more of a letterwriting piece that takes deeper focus than I give at work. I have auto drafting setting on my email that saves the draft every minute or so and I usually take many drafts before I figure out who to send it to. A good one may take days to get written, like the one I just mailed to the Kaiser Geneticist they assigned me to.

He got sacked in no uncertain terms.

Cheers,

Galen
Re: Dreager on Bioethics
Post on Mon 21 Jun 2010, 5:23 am by Gina
Here it is many thanks to Galen for finding a way .

http://www.thestranger.com/images/blogimages/2010/06/16/1276740688-yang_felsen_poppas_2007.pdf

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fetishes-i-dont-get/201006/can-you-hear-us-now
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