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Gina




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PostZucker protest

university of manchester LGBT society appear to have organised protest against Dr Kenneth Zucker from 10am outside The Lowry Hotel Manchester (event link on my profile) Friday 3rd December, though they refer to Zucker as "gay-cure" child psychologist, unsure if this is helpful or not to trans and intersex issues but I'm not involved with party political student groups. Will post link, any paid journalists covering this story?

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Zucker protest :: Comments

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Re: Zucker protest
Post on Thu 02 Dec 2010, 10:33 am by DianneB
He has done more damage to more people than anyone since Adolf Hitler!

Even though his misguided theories crashed and burned within a few years of his initial "proclamation", he has never once publicly renounced his initial position. He didn't have much to say after David Reimer killed himself a few years ago either.

Isn't he just the PERFECT person to have in charge of Canada's ONLY GID screening program!
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Re: Zucker protest
Post on Sun 05 Dec 2010, 6:03 am by Kathryn
A total menace...... should be struck off!
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Re: Zucker protest
Post on Tue 07 Dec 2010, 1:55 am by Erin
It is really unfortunate here in Canada is that Zucker came to Ontario and made a name for himself. But I don't think that he is the head of Canada's only GID screening program. Is he?

Wally/Erin
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Wed 08 Dec 2010, 11:58 am by Prince....ss?
I don't understand why David Reimer keeps being used as an intersex poster child he was not even intersex. He was born a normal boy. So any history on David Raimer should be about forced transsexualism and not intersexism. Most men would kill themselves if forced to be a woman.
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Re: Zucker protest
Post on Wed 08 Dec 2010, 2:41 pm by DianneB
It isn't about TS or IS Prince...ss, it is about doctors and medical people TELLING us who we should be instead of listening to us explain who we ARE!
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Re: Zucker protest
Post on Wed 08 Dec 2010, 5:00 pm by Kathryn
Exactly DianneB.....
While it is true that accurate diagnosis of any condition is essential before treatment (especially of the irreversible sort!) is undertaken, input from the patient is every bit as important as the clinical determinations and "psychological assessments" that those charged with those responsibilities undertake.
While we can't have treatments undertaken, or for that matter social and legal status changed, on the unsupported say-so of the patient (after all, people do get things wrong, or at least the reasons for them), medical professionals that do not listen to their patients are not only foolish, but dangerous.
The arrogance of the likes of John Money and Zucker are a danger to the health and well-being of many of us, and Money's ideas have tainted much of the thinking of those concerned with those of us not born with all our genetic or identity ducks in a row.
The likes of Zucker et al are all too ready to make arbitrary decisions about folk such as we, based on ideas that have been thoroughly discredited. For them to do otherwise would be to admit their errors, and that they will not do, no matter who gets hurt because of it.
One wonders if they actually take, or believe in, the Hippocratic Oath, and the principle of "first, do no harm"......?
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Wed 08 Dec 2010, 6:19 pm by Prince....ss?
I do understand that Dianne BUT David Raimer keeps being used as an example for intersex and trans issues. David was not either intersex or trans. Don't we have any better examples to prove our point. What they did to me and what they did to David are very similar. They cut off the boy parts called us girls and told everyone to reinforce the girl gender and never tell what was done.

The huge difference here is I am intersex and David is not. Being intersex in not just the parts we were born with it goes much deeper than that it's in our brains and our souls.

So protesting Zucker is not a problem for me but using poor David as a poster child just is not accurate.
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Wed 08 Dec 2010, 7:15 pm by Gina
Prince...sss

I think you misapprehend why David Reimer is always referred to in connection with Intersex.

Moneys theory was that a child is born as a blank slate and that by early intervention can be raised as any gender irrespective of biology.

Thus if parents raise a child as unambiguously girl/woman and appropriate feminizing drugs and surgery are given then the child will live happily as a girl/woman irrespective of anatomy genes or anything else.

Money proposed this intervention should happen before the child was three and started to develop long term memory capacity.

The substantiation of this theory was David Reimer. The reason for the theory was the need to raise Intersex children successfully within the gender binary. David Reimer was used to demonstrate that even an born unambiguously male could be made to think they were a girl and to be happy with that. By extrapolation Intersex children who are born of indeterminate sex could likewise be made to think they were boy/girl and be happy with that if intervention happened early enough.

David reimer then became the justification for non consensual infant surgery and Moneys theories accepted as the Paradigmatic truth.

There were many flaws in using david for this purpose two of the most notable were.

1 David's Intervention came after Moneys own limits on Intervention, that is after age three.

2 Intersex individuals are thought to have a less well defined need to fit within sex and gender binaries because of non binaried anatomies.( including our brains) and so are more likely to "fit in" as a path of least resistance than non intersex kids. That is our sex and gender are thought to be more fluid.

Not withstanding this; many many Intersex children suffered the torture of gender reinforcing rearing and sex reinforcement medication and surgery despite the flaws and uncertainties of Moneys theories. The idea that Intersex can be seen in a homogonous way persists.

Rather than treat each according to their needs medicine prefers uniform treatment across each medical diagnosis. So all XXY will be treated the same , all CAH will be treated the same and so on.

Amongst the Gifts David gave us were.

Genitals or the lack of them do not determine the sex/gender of an individual.

It is always prudent to wait until a child can inform us of the sex/gender rather than impose one on them.

There is more to gender identity than the way we raise our kids and the environment they are raised in.

He silenced Money when no one else could


Last edited by Gina on Wed 08 Dec 2010, 8:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Zucker protest
Post on Wed 08 Dec 2010, 7:53 pm by Kathryn
Exactly DianneB.... you just saved me a lot of typing.
HBS/Transsexuality is seen my many (including myself) as a form of Intersex condition, being innate in nature and similar to the appearance of ambiguous genitalia in an infant who appears to have "normal" chromosomes. It's just that the structural brain incongruity of HBS is not readily visible (although the lastest NMRI techniques are changing that!).
Our sex is in our head.... regardless of our genetic makeup or physical phenotype, and is formed from the "default" of female in utero.....sometimes not in harmony with the body and sometimes not sufficiently one or the other for anyone (including the person with the brain) to decide between male and female.....and that should not be a problem.
The phobia in modern societies about people that do not meet the male/female/heterosexual paradigm is really the issue here.
Those that started it are the only ones that can change it, but a good number of them seem unwilling to do so......
Ally that with a medical profession that for the last 1500 years has been close-minded in the extreme, and we have the situation that so often faces those of us that had the temerity to be born a bit "different"...

Oh dear..... I typed a lot anyway... (grin).
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Wed 08 Dec 2010, 8:59 pm by Prince....ss?
"David reimer then became the justification for non consensual infant surgery and Moneys theories accepted as the Paradigmatic truth."

Sorry but this is not true David was born in 1965 and they did me in 1962 and I was not the first non consensual infant surgery in 1962

"HBS/Transsexuality is seen my many (including myself) as a form of Intersex condition" Many more would disagree with this statement then would agree. I also find that mostly transsexuals support your statement and intersex people do not.

You really don't need to preach to me what a prick Money was. This crap had a profound impact on my life. And in reality a trans MtF Renée Richards also had a profound impact on my infant surgery. The panel of doctors used Renée Richards as an example as to why it was acceptable to reassign me. So Money was not the only influence at that time

So in the end David did nothing more then to take the cowards way out. I'm sure that there were many other people assigned a gender that deleted them selves why aren't they hailed the hero.

It was only a matter of time when the victims of Money's experiments became of age and relieved what a quack Money was.

Sorry but I just get tired of EVERYBODY making decisions about intersex issues or describing what it's like being intersex, except the intersex. Doctors, lawyers,gays, Trans, and the last but worst are the want-to-be intersex people that always seam to get the most attention because they try so hard to "Pass" as intersex to try to cover the trans.

The term intersex is a made up word so I really don't give a rat's ass who wants that label. I'm a male pseudo hermaphrodite and I find it interesting that the trans community don't want that label.

So in the end it's sad what happened to David but,

David is to Intersex
as
Intersex is to Trans
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Wed 08 Dec 2010, 9:21 pm by Gina
Princ...ss

again you misaprehend the- reasoning.

Moneys theories had been around since the early fifties. David Reimer was suposed to be the conclusive evidence that justified the surgical interventions before and safter. In some places it still is .

There had been many case studies conducted by Money prior to David that he used to justify his theories. David was a stand out because he was unambiguously male at birth and he had an Identical twin. If Money could convert David to a girl , he suposed, all of his previous theorising would be completly proven . Until Miltion Diamond did the detective work and found him out that is exactly how the medical profession recieved the paper on John/Joan.

See "man woman boy girl" for the conclusive theorising of Money and Erkheart.

OII has no position on wheather Transsexual is Intersex or not. There is insuficient evidence and it is not our area of concern. There are very few Intersex resorces world wide . OII and its affiliates provide most that do exist .

There are many well funded trans orgnisations and suport groups. We can't afford ( literaly ) to put our tiny resorces into trans issues.

I am sure I'm not preaching. I am simply puting the case as I understand it Smile

I disagree with you assesment of David's motives. I think it is insulting to describe him as a coward. He had a dreadful life.

Only some people make discisions about Intersex and more and more that is becoming Intersex themselves. I for instance make all of the descisions about my Intersex. With a few more years we in Australia will have full Intersex inclusion in Human rights and huge changes to medical protocols.

We have achieved that by engaugement and self empowerment. I have never heard a non Intersex person describe what it is like being Intersex. Generally they leave the narative to us. I have heard non Intersex people describe what Intersex is and have often found cause to intervene when that is seen as an illness.


Last edited by Gina on Wed 08 Dec 2010, 9:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Wed 08 Dec 2010, 9:23 pm by Gina
"David is to Intersex
as
Intersex is to Trans"

No "David is to Intersex as Intersex is to gender"
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Re: Zucker protest
Post on Wed 08 Dec 2010, 9:53 pm by Kathryn
I have heard the term "psychogenic hermaphrodite" applied to transsexual people. I guess if you aren't too accurate about the true meaning of "hermaphrodite", it's sort of semi-accurate. I have also heard "Psychogenically intersexed", which is closer to the mark. True hermaphrodites are able to function fully as either sex, either at the same time, or different times. Earthworms are the archetypical example. So true hermaphrodites in human form would be so rare as to not be present in the population. I have certainly never found evidence of one.

But as you say, what's in a name?
Actually, a lot, because it's the muddling of labels that aids those who would blur the boundaries between conditions that are innate and those that are acquired (and therefore curable, rather than just treatable, should one desire).
In addition to the BSTc studies, there has been a lot of "in vivo" work with NMRI on living brains, and much to everyone's surprise there are far more sexually dimorphic areas and functions of the human brain than were ever envisioned even a few years ago.
All of this science ought to facilitate diagnosis and treatment of many atypical states of being, among them being HBS and some intersex conditions.
I am awaiting the results of this research with much interest......
It ought to make decision making more informed by both those with these conditions and those that are charged with treating them. In this day and age, no one should have arbitrary decisions made about their state of being by someone else; doubly so if that someone else is not in possession of all available data.
Both these points are often missing, and the results sometimes catastrophic.
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Wed 08 Dec 2010, 10:03 pm by Gina
Kathryn

"All of this science ought to facilitate diagnosis and treatment of many atypical states of being, among them being HBS and some intersex conditions."

I disagree Intersex is not a condition, disorder , disease or illness . Intersex by and large, is in no need of diagnosis or treatment.

This visualises Intersex differences through the lense of medicine. Intersex are differences inthe same way handedness or height are differences.

There are some ways of being Intersex that have underling medical causes such as CAH . The CAH however is not the Intersex difference simply the reason for them.

I dont undertsand why there is a need to diagnose and treat people who are different 'atypical " in your words.
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Re: Zucker protest
Post on Wed 08 Dec 2010, 11:05 pm by Kathryn
Primnce...ss,
If you really look at what I wrote, rather than looking for conflict, you will see that I did mention "should one desire" (in italics for emphasis, too).
Nowhere have I implied that IS folk (or anyone else for that matter) is "ill".
Some IS people will seek some form of treatment, perhaps the better to match their body and spirit, perhaps to handle the stress better..... and of course some will not because they do not have the need.
There is no "need" to treat people, unless they desire it, which is why I have always advocated leaving well alone unless and until an individual decides what (if anything) they wish to do about what it is that makes them "atypical" (that is, different to the majority).

The whole point I was trying to bring out is that the science is ongoing, and that someone should not be subjected to treatment that they have not sought. That has happened to far too many IS folk in the past, and it must stop. Misguided attempts to force someone to fit some arbitrary stereotype of "normality" almost always result in disaster, and it seems to me that the more knowledge we have over what makes us who we are, can do nothing but improve our situation.....sooner or later.

To get back to the original theme of the thread..... It is the likes of Zucker that have promulgated the idea that we must all be "cured"....whether we like it or not. Right at the beginning (if you bother to look) I said that Zucker et al are a menace.......
They are the ones saying "different=ill"..... not I...
IS, like HBS, is a state of being, and changing (or not) one's state of being is something that each must decide for themselves. Never, anywhere, have I stated or even implied otherwise..............
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Thu 09 Dec 2010, 12:12 am by Gina
Katheryn.

You reffered to Intersex being "a condition". That is where people get the impression you think it is an illnes.

we are not a condition.
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Re: Zucker protest
Post on Thu 09 Dec 2010, 1:22 am by Kathryn
...............sigh..... of course it's a condition....so is not being intersexed....
both are states of being....the condition (or state of being) within which one lives...Like being male or female, tall or short or any other aspect of an individual's being.
The meaning of the word denoting an illness is only one of its meanings, and a minor one at that.
It's easier to type than "state of being".... but if it offends you for some reason I will try to avoid it.
I guess it all depends on whether one is merely seeking confrontation for some reason, which you appear to be doing....... or not.
It's obviously time I left this thread, as I seem unable to use the "right-speak" that is accepted here, regardless of is accuracy (or inaccuracy).
Ye gods..... we'll be arguing the "sex and gender" thing soon....

OK....end of rant....I'm out of here... I am obviously not welcome.
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Thu 09 Dec 2010, 2:22 am by Gina
Kathryn

I don't think you get it. Intersex is not a condition. If you insist in labeling us don't complain when someone labels you.

Well not if you insist on doing to others that you objset to having done to yourself
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Re: Zucker protest
Post on Thu 09 Dec 2010, 9:42 am by Andre
Gina,

Males are sometimes referred to being in the "male condition" as females are less referred to in that way but still prevalent as being in the "female condition". Intersex condition is referred to the state of being and not the medical term.

I think what you are tying to do is teach everyone the correct terminologies and losing the point in the argument itself: kind of hard to argue when someone constantly corrects your grammar. The terminology for that is "picking pee out of crap".

I know you are very well informed, Gina, and I would use that knowledge to teach rather than outright say that "you are wrong." We are on the same side here, Gina. No one likes to be dismissed.

Kathryn and Prince...ss, Chill. Gina has strong opinions, yes and can probably argue until the cows come home as she takes on heads of state for Intersex rights in Australia and partly for the world.

Y'all want to argue your own points but no one is listening to the other or even considering the others point. Can you say "exercise in futility ?" I knew you could. If I were you three, I would go over what had been said and if it raises your hackles then you aren't getting it. Go over it again, everyone of you had good points, you just bludgeoned the other with it.

Personally, aside from the dismissal's, this was good reading.

Andre
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Thu 09 Dec 2010, 11:15 am by Prince....ss?
I'm really not getting my hackles up and I'm not trying to be confrontational and I don't wish to argue. I would like to have an adult conversation about the subject that I thought was happening. To take every word another says to you as a personal attack is not conducive to the conversation. So keep the emotions out of it and stick to the facts or your personal opinion.

Kathryn don't go and don't go away angry. Your contribution to the conversation is important so as difficult as it may be keep the emotions at bay and present your views as you have been in a polite and thoughtful way. Just don't get angry if what you say is actually read and someone responds to your post (positively or negatively) this just shows that you were heard.

This kind of conversation is important because it presents different view points form different lives. I can only base my opinions on my life experiences so what I believe, I believe to be true, as you all do as well. So if there are disagreements or misunderstandings that is all apart of the communication process.

If we all agree on everything then there would not be much to talk about.
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Thu 09 Dec 2010, 11:17 am by Prince....ss?
Gina,

No "David is to Intersex as Intersex is to gender" I can't follow your logic on this could you spell it out for me?
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Thu 09 Dec 2010, 4:44 pm by Gina
Moneys logic was to demonstrate that a gender could be inplanted into an Intersex child using the techniques he demonstrated with David reimer.

Irrespective of physical sex a gender could be established by the way a child was reared.

David Reimers life was ruined just as many Intersex lives were by this theory.

The theory was likewise popupar with feminists who were pushing the line in those days that gender is entierly a social construsct and womens roles were the invention of a male patriarchy.

There were many groups that found Moneys Ideas atractive. He appeared on T.V as a kind of sex role guru in laid back hippy like talk shows.

The guy doing the real work of course was Kinsey.
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Thu 09 Dec 2010, 6:47 pm by Gina
Andre ...all

Though you may have a benign view of the use of the word conditions in connection with Intersex that is not the view of the general public nor that of legislators.

Because Intersex has for at least a century been seen as a medical thing associated with genital deformity and illness "condition" has for most an unambiguous connection to disorders. If you read fixing sex or the earlier works by Pervez, Fausto Stearling and Dreager the meaning is inescapable.

legislators and the law likewise use 'Condition" as meaning Illness in that- respect.

If we as Intersex describe ourselves through the prism of medicalisation we will continue to be medicalized, cured and be without the benefit of legal inclusion save for those that might be had as a people with a disabling "condition"

The reason that OII was established was that Curtis Hinkle could not get protection at law on the basis of sex discrimination ( differences) he could only succeed on the basis of disability (condition)

In the fight for Intersex rights language is no picking the "pee out of crap" exercise. It is the precise application of language to ensure we are inescapably included in legislation.

Irrespective I think I have the right to be referred to and identified in terms that are acceptable to me. Katherine is quick to point out to all her dislike at being referred to as transgender amongst many things . I respect that as I think everyone else has. I do that out of respect to her right to identify as she pleases.

I likewise have a right to object to being referred to in terms I find inaccurate and pathologizing. Whatever her use of the word condition and everyone else’s here, I reject it. I have battled for four years against bureaucrats , doctors , legislators , and ordinary people who see “Intersex conditions” as being no different from “mental conditions” or “medical conditions”.

I lecture two or three times a week to university student, police, lawyers and the general public. The perception that we are some kind of “condition” is widely held and negatively perceived. I think if you look at the international site you will find OII long ago dispensed with allowing Intersex to be described as a “condition”

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Re: Zucker protest
Post on Thu 09 Dec 2010, 6:53 pm by Andre
Well, I agree to a point but it all depends on what the subject at hand is, Gina.

I will agree that if we do not want to be labeled, then we shouldn't label either. However, in lieu of the recent discussions, how would you politically correctly (if there is such a word) describe Intersex as in reference to it.

Medically, it's a major point however when talking between us, it's rather minor.
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