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PostZucker protest

university of manchester LGBT society appear to have organised protest against Dr Kenneth Zucker from 10am outside The Lowry Hotel Manchester (event link on my profile) Friday 3rd December, though they refer to Zucker as "gay-cure" child psychologist, unsure if this is helpful or not to trans and intersex issues but I'm not involved with party political student groups. Will post link, any paid journalists covering this story?
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Zucker protest :: Comments

Re: Zucker protest
Post on Thu 09 Dec 2010, 6:53 pm by Andre
Well, I agree to a point but it all depends on what the subject at hand is, Gina.

I will agree that if we do not want to be labeled, then we shouldn't label either. However, in lieu of the recent discussions, how would you politically correctly (if there is such a word) describe Intersex as in reference to it.

Medically, it's a major point however when talking between us, it's rather minor.
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Thu 09 Dec 2010, 7:00 pm by Gina
Just use the word differences, it becomes habitual and you will put daylight between the perception you are disabled, disordered , an medical anomaly and so on.

Intersex are differences in the same way handedness and height are differences.

I refuse to accede to the notion I am an illness a condition a disorder a pathology or somehow because I have a different body worthy to be the subject of medicalisation and cure.

I am Intersex and proud to be Intersex. I have no shame or regrets that my body has some differences to others. I claim myself for myself in every single part.
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Thu 09 Dec 2010, 7:07 pm by Andre
You are preaching to the choir, Gina.

I too am a proud Intersex and I don't like to be viewed as defective in any sort of way of which I am not.

You haven't answered my question, however.


Re: Zucker protest
Post on Thu 09 Dec 2010, 7:13 pm by Gina

I also think the way we speak to each other here is likly to inform us about the way we speak in the wider community.

I think if we find no fault in using the word condition here, meaning some broad sense of a state of being, the apparant agreement we might percieve with the the person we are addressing might be mistaken.

My experience is when I say Intersex condition ( state of being) they think Intersex ( medical condition) . Try it out on your friends. ask what does Intersex condition mean? ( after going through the tedium of defining Intersex which nearly no one knows anything about.)

The language is important because in the end it is the fundamental impliment used to effect our emancipation.

Last edited by Gina on Thu 09 Dec 2010, 7:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Thu 09 Dec 2010, 7:14 pm by Gina

Intersex differences .
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Thu 09 Dec 2010, 7:14 pm by
Not sure if I'm following you Gina so please humor me and give me your point of view. If intersex is not a condition then what is it? How is being intersex any different then being born, blind,missing limbs, limbs or digits fused together or any other long list of "birth defects" for lack of a better word. These are conditions to me. Illness is something different to me like cancer, or salt wasting CAH to name a few. Things that must be treated to live. So I guess this is where I get lost in your logic.
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Thu 09 Dec 2010, 7:15 pm by Andre
Okay, got it. It's one of the reasons we took that out of our Site description.

What word would you use in it's place ?
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Thu 09 Dec 2010, 7:33 pm by Gina
Andre Intersex differences


"How is being intersex any different then being born, blind,missing limbs, limbs or digits fused together or any other long list of "birth defects" for lack of a better word"

and that is exactly what many people think. All of those things may be seen to confer a disability in one way or another .

Intersex is not a birth defect and it confers on the individual no disability save for the homophobic prejudices we are subjected to because of our different anatomy.

Because we are squeezed through the medical view of ourselves all our lives it is easy to imagine we are what they say we are.

For some of the differences you described those who are that way might like me object to being described as being born with a defect and insist they were mealy born different.

I know Blind people in the disability rights movements would describe your comments as being sightest. Likewise describing Intersex as a birth defect is sexist ( women for most of western history were considered as a kind of birth defect and undesirable )

What or what does not qualify as "normal" is a product of the society. The notion that Intersex is a defect , disorder, condition, and so on is a product of western societies homophobic reaction to sex differences.

Your own view and that of those around you is likewise informed within this paradigm .

I can point you to two groups that are often considered disabled , in the birth defect sense, that are strongly reacting to that appellation in the way Intersex does.

Those who have Aspergers or are within the Autism spectrum are beginning to reject the notion their differences are an illness in need of a cure. The current activists say they think differently and that’s all there is to it. Temple Grandon is a great example of that argument.

People who are born deaf are beginning to react against non consensual implantation of cochlear devices. they say that deafness is a legitimate way to exist and a human differences that has always been. There is some strong activists who insist that we need to accept deafness amongst us and they should not have to surgically alter themselves to fit in to our prejudiced society.
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Thu 09 Dec 2010, 8:30 pm by Gina

On reading this thread I might sem a bit hard headed and * ahem* over precise.

Let me dib in the following. I have said all of this with the greatest respect, no anger and a heart filled with love and a hope for a better world for Intersex people.

It may seem a bit tedious and forgive me if I lecture, it's a habit I am falling into because of constant activism amongst people who don't have a clue.

I also want everynoe here to be liberated from the terror of pathologising and the language of pathology that has had us bound in the manacles of opression for most of our lives. To see our differences as just that and not something that has to be justified or explained as the doctors do.

Re: Zucker protest
Post on Thu 09 Dec 2010, 9:12 pm by
No I don't view you as hard headed it's just I'm not understanding your point. I disagree with your point of view so I'm trying to figure if I'm missing something or are you.

For me as an intersex I feel that I was born with a birth defect. I was born with testes, penis, uterous and vagina. Yes that is different but it's also defective if they don't work as advertised. And in some ways I am disabled. for instance having children is not possible. And because of my condition I also have illness.

I am different but that is such a wide parameter then it is also correct to state that we are all different therefore there is no normal to be different from. So I'm still not seeing an issue with my "condition". Condition is only inferred as a fixable illness because this condition has a long history of being "fixable". I think you can push terminology all day long but the "powers to be" already have been taught their line of thinking and it will take more than calling us Different to get them to change their mind.

I'm not trying to be dense I just don't get it. I have no problem with your lecture I find it quite interesting. I respect what your trying to do but question this as a viable tactic to achieve your goals.

If you look at to know I'm different. I'm different because I have this condition. This condition causes illness. But to normalize me will not change my condition or cure my illness. The "Powers" just need to be educated that this condition is not fixable.
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Thu 09 Dec 2010, 9:50 pm by Gina

You are welcome to your view that you are disabled and that infertility is a disfunction ( lots of women would disagree)

OII international and OII Australia is opposed to this view of Intersex and has been working against it for more than ten years.

Not even the ISNA suports your position.

You have a right to see your self as a defect and disabled. I do not see myself that way and reject anyones attempts to classify me as such.

So far as achieving our goals . OII Australia has changed laws in respect of intersex in three states of Australia and is curently participationg in the full inclusion of Intersex as a differences of sex in anti discrimination and villification legeslation at both the federal level and with in the state based laws.

We will be included in Marriage equality legeslation, we have the right to change our birth certificates on the basis of our Intersex differences and will soon have the right to not specify our sex on those doiuments. We have the right to have abn X on our passport rather than M or F, we are changing the way documents request information in respect of our sex so that Male and female as well as anything else are write ins not tick boxes. We are Included in superannuation law as Intersex and we are changing medicare funding and documentation so that they are Intersex inclusive. We are in negotiations with the theraputic good administration to widen diagnostic protocols so that they are client based and not paradigm based. we are lobing to have greater ( read some) funding to research and treat mental health issues for Intersex.

We will have Intersex included in sex discrimination law in the Victorian charter of rights , we curently have Intersex being discussed in the state and federal atourneys general confrence.

Prince...sss in one hundred years of pathologising Intersex in the way you do. Not one single anti discrimination law no inclusion in human rights only a continuation of the surgery, medication, misdiagnosing and pathologising. In the one hundred and fifty hears since Herculine Barbin no doctor has ever lobbied for our human rights or attempted to convince the worls we are a part of the natural order of things. No doctor or medical fraternity has attempted see we have protection at law indeed they have argued against our rights at self determination.

All they have ever done is try to make us 'Normal" and pretend we don't exist.

Re: Zucker protest
Post on Thu 09 Dec 2010, 9:53 pm by Gina
Do you have an Illness because of your intersex or are you intersex as a result of your underlieing diagnosis.

Intersex is not the same as the diagnosis. I am CAH my CAH may have lead to my intersex differences but even if my CAH was cured I woiuld still have Intersex differences. The CAH is treated by addressing problems with my adrenal gland not my cliterous.
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Thu 09 Dec 2010, 11:46 pm by
No diagnosis we can leave all that out

To be clear I will say that I have illness because of the way I was born so you can take that on face value.

I know that the intersex community does not share my view and that is part of the problem. Out of the entire Intersex community I am the minority, and yet I have people with AIS CAH XXY gays, trans, doctors and lawyers and so on marching on my behalf yet no one want's my opinion. At birth I was reassigned to female, were you? So your difference does not match my difference ( see how weird that sounds) yet you are speaking on my behalf.
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Fri 10 Dec 2010, 12:21 am by Gina
No prince...ssss

I do not speak on your behalf. I will leave that to your good graces. You seem to be doing Ok at it

As an elected director and Chair of OII Australia I will speak on behalf on my constituency and on behalf of myself.

Indeed there is an exemption for you. If you dont want human rights and protection at law you don't have to have it. Just let it all go by. There is no compulsion to seek the protection at law if you dont want to there is no compulsion to seek a remedy if medicine maltreats you, there is no cumpulsion to seek compensation if you are the victum of discrimination or vilifiaction because of your intersex.

The law is there for those that want it . Not everyone does.

For myself and our membership we want it and we will get it.

Re: Zucker protest
Post on Fri 10 Dec 2010, 10:28 am by
Well as an elected director your constituency I'm sure have people like me.

I don't know what human rights your talking about that I have had taken away other than the one count of reassigning me with out my consent. Yes that is a biggie but it was done almost 50 years ago with people like our hero Money persuading directions of treatment.

By all accounts legal and otherwise I am female and have not had any human rights violated any more than any other natural woman in my country. I'm kinda in my own version of the don't ask- don't tell policy. So I feel that I'm no worse off then any other woman and even if I bring up the intersex people really don't care or don't understand.

Here in the US the protection of law is non-existent so I'm not sure what the law is to protect me from.
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Fri 10 Dec 2010, 4:29 pm by Gina
No we don't Prince...ssss

why would thy join if they thought the way you do?

And as you are not Intersex for all pratical purposes you dont need rights at law to protect you. Good for you.

For those of us who by all accounts are Intersex we need protection at law.

Whats your problem . If you don't want to ba a part of it you don't have to. Why winge about those of us who are fighting for our rights.
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Fri 10 Dec 2010, 8:48 pm by
What do you mean for all practical purposes I'm not intersex? And what makes you by all account intersex.

If you don't know I'm intersex from what I have told you then you don't know what intersex is. And if people want to join and act like cattle off to the slaughter then that is there problem. I'll bet you a large group of your members are intersex want-to be's you know people that are trans and can't admit it.

So instead of insulting me. What legal rights are you talking about and what human rights are we being kept from.

You need to answer my first question for sure Gina.
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Fri 10 Dec 2010, 11:23 pm by Gina

You said "By all accounts legal and otherwise I am female and have not had any human rights violated any more than any other natural woman in my country. I'm kinda in my own version of the don't ask- don't tell policy. So I feel that I'm no worse off then any other woman and even if I bring up the intersex people really don't care or don't understand."

so far as I can tell that means for all practical purposes you are not Intersex. Whether you have intersex differences or not they don't seem to affect you.

You aparantly are not being kept from any human rights and live a li*fe where you have full access to anti discrimination and anti vilifiaction legeslation. You enjoy full access to medicien superannuation and so on.

Many Intersex people are no as fortunate as yourself and are routinly discriminated against on the basis of their Intersex. We seek protection for those people.

If you consider my reading of your words as Insulting have a think about how yours might seem to those of us who are Intersex in ways that attracts bigotry and exclusion.

Re: Zucker protest
Post on Mon 13 Dec 2010, 11:42 am by
Gina, I am affected by my intersex condition but not in ways that can be controlled through legislation. Although I'm not a man I have still been forced into this female body and been given the legal female status. So how can one fix social opinions, relationship issues, or health issues through legislation.

I have been asking you questions about your views and specifics of things that you are fighting for. I may not ask my questions as a direct question but I do give you my point of view and expected an answer of response based on my statements. So far most of your responses have been vague. So if you wish to be an effective activist being clear an concise is a good start.

So please don't get you heckles up with me. It was insulting for you to call me (personally and directly) not intersex, and now adding bigot and exclusionary to the list is not the way to make your point.

I don't feel that my words should be taken as insulting I'm asking questions and not making any attacks on you or any specific person. I have stated my dissatisfaction with the want-to be's that are detrimental to the state of intersex and our cause. For every Intersex want-to be that stands up and screams for intersex rights and the injustices that we are subject to does our cause a dishonor. Then if you want to be realistic the porn industry is not doing us any favors. How many of of those "chicks with d**ks" are real intersex? How many of the "Powers at hand" have passed through that section of the internet site either to be turned on or disgusted by these people they are your representative and your voice.

So with that all said I will ask again.

What legal rights are you talking about and what human rights are we being kept from?
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Mon 13 Dec 2010, 1:36 pm by TomMsG
We thought we had responded to this thread but it must not have shipped. Kind of like our reproductive abilities. A lot of us are sterile, which is often viewed by the medical establishment as a "disability" and or a "Condition" possibly fixable. Having beaten "condition" to death - we might move on to disablement since being sterile and knowing about it since 17 provided us with unheralded opportunities for sexual intimacy with a variety of partners for most of our subsequent life. At no time have we considered sterility a disability, nor have we considered it a condition we'd like to "fix". Adoption fixes us - as does getting sperm from an anonymous or relative donor. Raising children brings about father/motherhood more convincingly than proof of successful mating.

Personally, when people bring up the word condition we define it as "state of being". If they don't get it - we beat on it until they do see our point of view and why. This is called education and the best way to educate is to relate our position to something real in their lives. Red hairness - left handedness - IQ -
emotional intelligence - are all states of being that might be considered medical conditions. Indeed, left handedness and IQ are often treated in this manner to the detriment of the individual involved.

Much of this argument seems unnecessarily harsh. The language and stress levels shown by Gina are apparent in the mis-spellings and occasional incoherence of her responses. Truly, "condition" sets many of us off esp. if it is used in a medically pejorative fashion.

We object to any word that demeans or disrespects us a person. We fight constantly with Doctors about "patient", which implies that we are patient in waiting rooms, cubicles, and offices. But we are paying for their services so one way or another we deserve to be treated as customers, clients, and/or consultants in our own health. Another battle we fight concerns "health provider" a dubious term since we few can site examples of health being provided to anyone. Rather, successful strategies that help the customer heal and regain his health are what we are discussing.

Even assuming that we drop the word condition from the equation of IS and medicine - it will remain in use for other folks - rather it would seem better to define it as often as necessary to achieve our goal of being respected members of human society with genetic variations some of which may require/demand interventions to improve our quality of life.

One more fight we fight on a regular basis is that sex is a hell of lot of fun for consenting partners and making babies is rarely the primary focus of sexual encounters. Yes, reproduction can become a job if it doesn't happen eventually but on the whole our popularity was precisely what most doctors we've seen considered a sad "disability". How poorly understood we humans are by our own self appointed authorities. Our capacities for teamwork, socializing, compassion, sympathy, love, and eroticism are found only in two other species - Chimpanzees and bonobos with whom we share 98.4% of our DNA.

Perhaps we can overcome the holocaust that agriculture inflicted on our species 10,000 years ago, but so far the record suggests not.

Love and smooches to all, Tom/Ms.G
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Mon 13 Dec 2010, 4:59 pm by
I don't see disablement is a better word than "condition" a state of being, not being able to have children for me is not a disablement.

Look up Condition in your thesaurus nothing refers to medical or fixable. Lets not kill perfectly good words because others used it in an improper manner or in a way we dislike. So if you don't like condition we could try (state, form, situation,circumstance or order) There is nothing wrong or improper to use condition. Lets not cloud the issue with word usage.
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Mon 13 Dec 2010, 6:07 pm by Gina
From the OED

1 [mass noun] [usually with adjective] the state of something with regard to its appearance, quality, or working order:

the wiring is in good condition
[in singular] :
the bridge is in an extremely dangerous condition

person‘s or animal’s state of health or physical fitness:
the baby was in good condition at birth
[in singular] :
she was in a serious condition[count noun] [often with modifier] an illness or other medical problem:
a heart condition

In legislation so far as Condition is taken to mean medical condition . Health and discrimination Legislation is interested in attributes.
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Mon 13 Dec 2010, 6:09 pm by Gina
To the rest of the questions answers are in the text above.

disablement is likewise pathologising of natural differences.
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Mon 13 Dec 2010, 7:01 pm by Gina
“So how can one fix social opinions, relationship issues, or health issues through legislation.”

Not a bad question.

Here is how.

Social opinion is changed by the process of making legislation. For instance the push for marriage equality has to some extent polarized social opinion and also moved it. In Australia when the Howard government changed the marriage act to exclude all marriages save those between a man and a woman ( what that means in is determined by the interpretations act) public support for marriage equality was 30%. The push for legislative change has seen that change to 63% in favor. People here are now very supportive of marriage equality and consequently more supportive of LGBTIQ. The push for marriage equality has raised public awareness of Trans and Intersex more than any other public discourse in our history , even more than the Caster Semenya controversy. We are regularly mentioned in connection with this .

Likewise where Intersex has been mentioned for legislative protection public awareness of Intersex is increased and we garner considerable support. Intersex awareness has risen from nearly negligible levels five years ago to about 40% now . The legal issues around the treatment of Caster Semenya and the behavior of Australian newspapers in reporting her diagnosis has been enormously helpful in raising public awareness about our lack of rights. The right to medical privacy was not protected in Ms Semenya’s case and no action could be taken under Australian law, the country that “outed” her diagnosis. Her right to compete as a woman and just what it meant to be a woman were extensively discussed in the media. Those same issues receive ongoing attention because of the LGBTIQ rights movement for full marriage equality and protection in federal anti discrimination law.

If we have protection at law then a case can be brought , that case will receive some publicity and people will become increasing reluctant to engage in discrimination against Intersex. This is the way it has worked in the United states and Australia so far as all other discrimination acts are concerned. Racial discrimination, sex discrimination and disability discrimination acts have all changed social attitudes. It makes a differences to what you will do in public if you can be sent to jail or fined large sums of money for your discriminatory behavior.

Health issues are the easiest to tackle. Health legislation that is fully inclusive of Intersex and that forces practitioners to take a client based approach means that a man with ovaries will receive complete and equal treatment of that part of his body. It means that testicles will not be removed without full and adequate scientific foundations to do so. It means that funding will have to be put into long term studies to discover how interventions have worked over time. It means Medicare numbers for surgeries and consequently public funding for them, it means expanding prescription regimes so that Intersex individuals who take Androcur are not put on a criminal offenders list ( as is currently the case) . It means that XXY who need estrogen will have access to it without having to have a diagnosis of GID ( currently the case) and AIS will not routinely have their testicles removed because of a 3% cancer risk and be forced onto HRT ( testicles still produce testosterone which is converted into estrogen in AIS women) which has , over a lifetime use ( not recommended by a single hormone manufacturer) has a 19% risk of cancer.

It is our view that changes to health legislation and subsequently medical protocols are likely to have one of the most profoundly beneficial effect on Intersex lives. If Intersex have protection in anti discrimination legislation discriminatory practices , such as those outlined above, would be actionable under those laws . Recent changes to Victorian superannuation laws here were as a result of the laws being inconsistent to rights under the Victorian charter of rights. So if we have anti discrimination protection laws that are currently inconsistent with a person’s rights under anti discrimination legislation will be changed.

Relationship issues are currently addressable through the family law act and are Intersex inclusive. Ones Intersex does not bar one from divorce so long as one is able to marry. Currently same sex and Intersex relationships that have been in existence for longer than two years are recognised as defacto relationships. We have the same rights to family planning, relationship counseling and separation as heterosexuals. The detail of the laws can be found at the Family Court of Australia website.

If in referring to relationship issues you mean your day to day ups and downs with those around you, that is a matter for yourself as it is for all people. Legislation can provide you with no more than resources and protection, whether you access them or use them is entirely a matter for you.

Anti discrimination law will affect your rights : in the workplace, access to services, access to housing, superannuation and your child’s rights to it, marriage, in custody, body searches, in what institution you can be jailed, terms used to address you , cardinal documentation, privacy, vilification ( the incitement to hate a class of people) , To unemployment and sickness benefits, and many more.

If you want social opinion changed on a case by case basis, that is my neighbor treats me badly , the person in the shop treats me badly , you can take them to court and so on, but in the end you might find it easier to move or not go to that shop. That’s no different to what everyone else has to put up with. Even when you have full protection at law and you are clearly in the right someone can still shoot you.

Intersex rights are about us havening the same rights as everyone else , it is not about creating a utopia
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Mon 13 Dec 2010, 7:34 pm by Gina
The essence of our effort to see that every child has a chance must be to assure each an equal opportunity, not to become equal, but to become different - to realize whatever unique potential of body, mind and spirit they possesse”
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Mon 13 Dec 2010, 9:11 pm by
Good answer and good examples Gina, Thanks I still don't agree with the "condition" argument I can see your point but I still don't see the "Condition" as a bad thing. I think its being used as a tool or weapon, used to protect and harm. Time to disarm that word.
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