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PostZucker protest

university of manchester LGBT society appear to have organised protest against Dr Kenneth Zucker from 10am outside The Lowry Hotel Manchester (event link on my profile) Friday 3rd December, though they refer to Zucker as "gay-cure" child psychologist, unsure if this is helpful or not to trans and intersex issues but I'm not involved with party political student groups. Will post link, any paid journalists covering this story?
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Zucker protest :: Comments

Re: Zucker protest
Post on Mon 13 Dec 2010, 9:11 pm by
Good answer and good examples Gina, Thanks I still don't agree with the "condition" argument I can see your point but I still don't see the "Condition" as a bad thing. I think its being used as a tool or weapon, used to protect and harm. Time to disarm that word.
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Mon 13 Dec 2010, 9:32 pm by Gina

I am in no position to disarm the word condition. It is written into acts under the Interpretations act 1983. It has the meaning as used in the OED and further narrowed by the act and interpreted in case law. I ,as an activist, am unlikely to change that nor do I wish to dilute our resources trying to.

As an activists I can dissuade individuals and governments using it in connection with Intersex when it's use means "medical condition". You like it and I have no problems with you seeing yourself as having a condition.

So far as changing the law is concerned condition puts us into disability. OII was established to prevent that and that view of Intersex.

As an activists I am a representative of many organisations. In so far as this is concerned I represent OII and in particular OII Australia. The depathologisation of Intersex and the opposition to language that pathologises us or tends to pathologize us is OII policy both internationally and in Australia.

I support that policy and speak to it.
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Tue 14 Dec 2010, 1:56 am by Erin
So far as I am concerned I am intersex, or I am an intersex person. Some people refer to themselves as males or females. I am not a male with an intersex condition. I am intersex.

I haven't spent a lot of time studying my experiences with being intersex and how the world perceives it, but I now have had my eyes opened up about at least one of the ways that my human rights have been affected. Thank you Gina. It would have been nicer if I'd had access to this information back in 2002 when a rheumatologist said to me that because I had Klinefelters Syndrome I should be ineligible to collect benefits from Workers' Compensation.

I realize now that that is definitely a violation of my human rights. Consequently this doctor has sent unrequested reports to all of the WCB claims that I have had to date - cts, broken wrist due to a fall, being hit by a car at work. This is all due to the fact that I am intersex. As an intersex person in Canada I have no rights.

Being intersex is not any less than being male or female and I should not have allowed myself to be treated by this doctor the way that I was. I can see that I need to look further into what support there is in Canada in support of intersex persons.

Re: Zucker protest
Post on Tue 14 Dec 2010, 2:50 am by Gina
Hi Erin/Wally

we have a few friends in Canada including the lovely Andre who manages this list Smile

maybe you could hook up with Andre. I am unsure how Intersex came out in your charter of rights , which I understand is now a bill. I suspect you have plenty of leverage if you use that.

Best of luck and now you know you can get the word out to other canadians.

Re: Zucker protest
Post on Tue 14 Dec 2010, 3:02 am by Gina
These two links might be of Intrest to you


I had some comunications with Siksay the proposer of the Trans amendments in Canada however he never got back to me on Intersex inclusion. It would be good if some canadians tackled him on this .

I think section fifteen of the canadian charter gurantees Intersex rights but this has not been tested to my knowledge. It is my opinion that unless the word Intersex is used in definitions then sex is generally taken to mean male or female. This however could be determined by aplication to the Canadian HRC
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Thu 29 Mar 2012, 10:36 am by Vickie wrote:
I don't understand why David Reimer keeps being used as an intersex poster child he was not even intersex. He was born a normal boy. So any history on David Raimer should be about forced transsexualism and not intersexism. Most men would kill themselves if forced to be a woman.
Zucker protest - Page 3 201866

David Reimer had ablatio penis in other words his penis was burned off in a accident when he and his brother was getting a circumcision. Dr. Money had a great control case with his brother being a typical male twin. He set out to prove that gender is a response to nurturing of the parents, and other people in the child's life. Of course he proved the opposite of what he started out to prove in which Davids own nature of being male overcame his nurturing as a female. David comes up as being the intersex poster child for this reason to prove that the child's own nature of being masculine or feminine always over comes the nurturing of the parents. This is also proved with every transsexual in they were raised in the gender that matched there typically normal genitalia and there nature of being the opposite gender overcame this nurturing.
Is is why Canada has adopted the mandate to stop genital surgeries without the patients informed consent. At birth we don't know what the gender of the child is so let the child find out what herms gender is, and inform the child from a early age all about herms condition at a age appropriate language and then around 6-10ish then do the surgeries the child wants to be the gender herm is.

Take Care,
Elder A. Vickie Boisseau CPS
Central Mass Recovery Learning Community

"We are all crafted into the art of our being
before our birth." - A. Vickie Boisseau

I am not my body.
- Thich Nhat Hanh
Re: Zucker protest
Post on Thu 29 Mar 2012, 12:23 pm by galens47
Hi All,

I've been to several talks that David Reimer comes up. I've calmly raised my hand and explained that David Reimer was not intersex. Forced transsexual is a good definition. John Money's data had been completely refuted. He cherry picked his data plus did not publish the findings of his study that refuted his claims. For all intensive purposes John Money's research falls into the category of junk science.

There is a major issue with practitioners and updating data. There is often much hype with a finding like John Money's and very little when a finding like his is refuted and tossed. There are many studies published now that site his work and his work is BS. Not cool!

I suppose a way to combat this would be to write to the authors and explain with proof that they are using references to studies that have been proven to be false. A bit like a law that resists vaccination based on the Lancet journal claiming autism and vaccines that was later debunked. The Lancet thankfully did a well publicized retraction, but much of the harm had been done already.



Re: Zucker protest
Post on Fri 30 Mar 2012, 11:57 am by krishnabhakta
David Reimer IS THE PERFECT POSTER CHILD for the problems connected with non-consensual surgery on intersex children exactly BECAUSE he was born a typical male child. Reimer demonstrates that gender identity is inborn and can NEVER be programmed into a child. Reimer was imprinted as a male while still a fetus and, despite forced feminization by Money et al., could never be molded into the intended gender. David Reimer shows that gender identity is BIOLOGICALLY determined and NOT psychological in any way.

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